Armor v Aftershock - Confuzzling - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Dazzler · Jul 14, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40

When you use Healing Signet, the Armor Rating of each piece of armor you are wearing is reduced by 40. So, if you insist on totalling up your armor, then think about it as Healing Signet reducing your total armor by 40 * (leg,hand,feet,chest,head) = -200.

But armor does not work that way. When u get hit for dmg by anything, only one part of your body is hit and that is the armor used for the dmg calculations.

Assuming you get hit in the chest since it is auto-hit, what you should do is look at the Armor rating of your chest piece (I do not know Warrior armor but I will just guess and say 80...feel free to correct).

When you use Healing Signet, the armor rating gets reduced by 40, so your 80 armor would become 40.

More significant is that the damage done by creatures is based upon a Armor of 60. So if Aftershock says it should do 100 points of damage, then if it hits something with 60-armor, that something will take 100 damage. Also, the damage formula is structured so that for every 40-armor difference from 60, the dmg will be doubled/halved.

So if you have 20 armor, the Aftershock will do 200 dmg and if you had 100 armor, the dmg would only be 50. Again bear in mind I am making these dmg numbers up.

So the fact that your dmg doubled makes perfect sense. Your armor decreased by 40, causing 2x the dmg according to the equations. What I don't know is why your friend's dmg did not double too. Does he perhaps have something that increases his resistance to elemental damage?

GWGamer · Jul 14, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Thank you Dazzler.

It makes sense now, I think.

I didn't think my friend had any kind of additional defense or extra protection
against Earth Dmg, or if there was such a thing for Warriors, but I'll
have to check with them again when they log on.

I'll post again when I find out.

Thanks again everyone.

A link for those who are interested in Healing Signets:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20977

Epinephrine · Jul 14, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

You don't total the AL either - the AL is only for the piece in question. Thus you apply the damage vs the piece. Shields only protect against some angles of attack? Maybe one of you was getting a shield benefit and the other wasn't?

That would make almost exacty that difference: 16 AL difference results in a reduction of damage by 24.22% (2^-0.4=~0.7579) so that would change the 50 damage your friend sufferred into 100 during the healing signet - if however you then reduce by a shield's AL you'd get 76 damage, minus 2 for the absorption would land you at 74. This requires that the absorption be applied twice though in the calculations; once to figure out the non healing signet damage, and once again after the healing signet damage. It is also puzzling why he gets a shield reduction and you don't, and why his shield is only kicking in during the healing signet part, but the amounts are about right for a shield at 16 AL to be the dfifference.

I worked for ages just now trying to match a model to the damages, but I couldn't make one using the accepted game mechanics and the data available - it seems to require that absorptions get counted more than once when a healing signet is active, and some odd rounding (prehaps you aren't actually being dealt 54 damage but 53.7 for example, and your friend is being dealt 49.9) - I can get some pretty accurate matches but they require throwing out much of what has been written, so eeither the mechanics behind the knight's armour reductions have been changed or I am failing to make good models:

e.g. (this is an example of one of the models I was trying): Aftershock at level 12 deals 85 damage (+/- a half point I suspect - these variables make it harder, as we don't know the exact damage)

85 AL on both your chests reduce damage to 64.84%, or with no runes/absorption about 55.11 damage. If the runes/knights reduction stack and your friend has a major rune, and if these reductions are now applied before the damage is calculated it fits beautifully - you suffer (85-2)*.6484 = 53.8 or 54 damage; he suffers (85-8)*.6484=49.92 damage, or 50 damage. Adding a pair of knights gauntlets to yours makes it (85-4)*.6484=52.52 which would round badly, but if in fact the damage is 84.8 as base damage from aftershock (or something similar) the numbers still all work out, and you land on your magic 52 damage with your knight's gloves and rune.

This requires that they all stack though, and that the damage reduction is now applied before the armour reduction - which is contrary to Ensign's earlier work, so I have trouble accetping it. It would also require that the damage absorption was applied differently after a healing signet, which could be an error (using old code instead of new code in that calculation for example) if they have recently changed the way that absorption works.

Well, more testing could illuminate some interesting effects; Ensign, care to enlighten us? I am stuck at work and can't do more than theorise atm, and I don't have a PvE warrior at present.

Count Feanor · Jul 14, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Ok. I have read tons of posts on armor for warriors and still have not seen a straight answer. Probably because no one knows for sure. What is the best armor set if you get the whole set without adding mods? Is the very best a throw up set of different sets? I for one would want to wear a straight set instead of something that looks like I've stripped off of many dead warriors over the years. In fact, I may just get platemail and be done with it.

GWGamer · Jul 14, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Wow.. That's a lot of work.

I'll leave it to the mathematicians to reply to the second half of your post.

As for the Shield reduction, I was under the impression that only -Dmg mods
on Shields apply to Spell damage.

I also tried facing every which way with my shield equipped while having
the Drake cast Aftershock, even though I read it only blocks attacks
that are in front of you.

I went back in a few minutes ago, and cast 'Watch Yourself!' on me.

Following Dazzler's explanation, and if Watch Yourself works like Healing
Signet in terms of the Armor adjustment, I should have had 105 Armor
for my Chest when the spell hit.

The Drake's Aftershock did 37 dmg to me, which fits in with the equation,
sort of.

20 AL (140dmg) Estimate
45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet
60 AL (70dmg)
85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet
105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself!

Would that make sense..?

Edit: To Count Feanor -

Several players who have played the game through will probably say
a mix of Armors is the best choice, but most players will give the
very reason you just gave and opt for a complete set of one type
of armor, because of appearances, which is fine as well. As long
as you're satisfied with the results.

Epinephrine · Jul 14, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWGamer

Wow.. That's a lot of work.

I'll leave it to the mathematicians to reply to the second half of your post.

As for the Shield reduction, I was under the impression that only -Dmg mods
on Shields apply to Spell damage.

I also tried facing every which way with my shield equipped while having
the Drake cast Aftershock, even though I read it only blocks attacks
that are in front of you.

I went back in a few minutes ago, and cast 'Watch Yourself!' on me.

Following Dazzler's explanation, and if Watch Yourself works like Healing
Signet in terms of the Armor adjustment, I should have had 105 Armor
for my Chest when the spell hit.

The Drake's Aftershock did 37 dmg to me, which fits in with the equation,
sort of.

20 AL (140dmg) Estimate
45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet
60 AL (70dmg)
85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet
105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself!

Would that make sense..?

Watch yourself makes more sense than the shield, it gets around the need to have the absorption apply twice. 74 is double the 37, so watch youself would work nicely in this model - you damage at 60 though is off, it should read:

20 AL (166dmg) Estimate
45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet
60 AL (81dmg)
65 AL (74dmg) During Healing Signet and Watch Yourself!
85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet
105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself!

This fits the model of the absorption rune and knights stacking, applied to base damage before the armour reduction. Still not sure how your freind was taking 50 damage unless the knights bits stack with each other, but then I am at a loss as to how he hit 74 (like you would) during a healing signet.

Could you describe what you were using with the 37 damage (did you have the knights gloves on or off? what's the difference?), and try to get the healing signet up with Watch Yourself!? That would allow us to know a bit more about where the reductions take place.

GWGamer · Jul 14, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Could you describe what you were using with the 37 damage (did you have the knights gloves on or off? what's the difference?), and try to get the healing signet up with Watch Yourself!? That would allow us to know a bit more about where the reductions take place.

With Watch Yourself! and Healing Signet active during Aftershock,
I receive 73 dmg, without any Knight pieces on.
71 dmg with Knight's Gloves.

I just found out that my friend was using Lieutenant's Helm, not
Knight's Helm though, and with the numbers you just put in for
60AL, I think things make more sense.

These are new damage numbers they received:

50 dmg
78 dmg
102 dmg

Assuming that spells are no longer Auto-Hit, Aftershock can target
any of the body parts.

50 dmg would make sense for either the chest, legs, feet, or hands.

If Healing Signet was timed wrong, it might have seemed like they
were receiving different dmg numbers, but in reality, they were
getting dmged by Aftershock in the Head. Lieutenant's Helm,
which is 60AL. (78 dmg)

If that's true, then I was wrong about the 74, when instead it
was 78.

With Healing Signet active, 102 dmg on chest/legs would be the
same as the dmg I had (With Knight's).

Jul 14, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02	#23
Epinephrine Master of Beasts Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ottawa, Canada Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]	You don't total the AL either - the AL is only for the piece in question. Thus you apply the damage vs the piece. Shields only protect against some angles of attack? Maybe one of you was getting a shield benefit and the other wasn't? That would make almost exacty that difference: 16 AL difference results in a reduction of damage by 24.22% (2^-0.4=~0.7579) so that would change the 50 damage your friend sufferred into 100 during the healing signet - if however you then reduce by a shield's AL you'd get 76 damage, minus 2 for the absorption would land you at 74. This requires that the absorption be applied twice though in the calculations; once to figure out the non healing signet damage, and once again after the healing signet damage. It is also puzzling why he gets a shield reduction and you don't, and why his shield is only kicking in during the healing signet part, but the amounts are about right for a shield at 16 AL to be the dfifference. I worked for ages just now trying to match a model to the damages, but I couldn't make one using the accepted game mechanics and the data available - it seems to require that absorptions get counted more than once when a healing signet is active, and some odd rounding (prehaps you aren't actually being dealt 54 damage but 53.7 for example, and your friend is being dealt 49.9) - I can get some pretty accurate matches but they require throwing out much of what has been written, so eeither the mechanics behind the knight's armour reductions have been changed or I am failing to make good models: e.g. (this is an example of one of the models I was trying): Aftershock at level 12 deals 85 damage (+/- a half point I suspect - these variables make it harder, as we don't know the exact damage) 85 AL on both your chests reduce damage to 64.84%, or with no runes/absorption about 55.11 damage. If the runes/knights reduction stack and your friend has a major rune, and if these reductions are now applied before the damage is calculated it fits beautifully - you suffer (85-2).6484 = 53.8 or 54 damage; he suffers (85-8).6484=49.92 damage, or 50 damage. Adding a pair of knights gauntlets to yours makes it (85-4).6484=52.52 which would round badly, but if in fact the damage is 84.8 as base damage from aftershock (or something similar) the numbers still all work out, and you land on your magic 52 damage with your knight's gloves and rune. This requires that they all stack though, and that the damage reduction is now applied before the armour reduction - which is contrary to Ensign's earlier work, so I have trouble accetping it. It would also require that the damage absorption was applied differently after a healing signet, which could be an error (using old code instead of new code in that calculation for example) if they have recently changed the way that absorption works. Well, more testing could illuminate some interesting effects; Ensign, care to enlighten us? I am stuck at work and can't do more than theorise atm, and I don't have a PvE warrior at present. Last edited by Epinephrine; Jul 14, 2005 at 02:18 PM // 14:18..*

Jul 14, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34	#24
Count Feanor Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hellsing Organization or... RIGHT BEHIND YOU!! Guild: The Royal Priesthood Profession: N/W	Need a straight answer Ok. I have read tons of posts on armor for warriors and still have not seen a straight answer. Probably because no one knows for sure. What is the best armor set if you get the whole set without adding mods? Is the very best a throw up set of different sets? I for one would want to wear a straight set instead of something that looks like I've stripped off of many dead warriors over the years. In fact, I may just get platemail and be done with it.

Jul 14, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52	#25
GWGamer Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2005	Wow.. That's a lot of work. I'll leave it to the mathematicians to reply to the second half of your post. As for the Shield reduction, I was under the impression that only -Dmg mods on Shields apply to Spell damage. I also tried facing every which way with my shield equipped while having the Drake cast Aftershock, even though I read it only blocks attacks that are in front of you. I went back in a few minutes ago, and cast 'Watch Yourself!' on me. Following Dazzler's explanation, and if Watch Yourself works like Healing Signet in terms of the Armor adjustment, I should have had 105 Armor for my Chest when the spell hit. The Drake's Aftershock did 37 dmg to me, which fits in with the equation, sort of. 20 AL (140dmg) Estimate 45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet 60 AL (70dmg) 85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet 105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself! Would that make sense..? Edit: To Count Feanor - Several players who have played the game through will probably say a mix of Armors is the best choice, but most players will give the very reason you just gave and opt for a complete set of one type of armor, because of appearances, which is fine as well. As long as you're satisfied with the results. Last edited by GWGamer; Jul 14, 2005 at 03:00 PM // 15:00..

Jul 14, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40	#21
Dazzler Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Profession: E/Me	When you use Healing Signet, the Armor Rating of each piece of armor you are wearing is reduced by 40. So, if you insist on totalling up your armor, then think about it as Healing Signet reducing your total armor by 40 * (leg,hand,feet,chest,head) = -200. But armor does not work that way. When u get hit for dmg by anything, only one part of your body is hit and that is the armor used for the dmg calculations. Assuming you get hit in the chest since it is auto-hit, what you should do is look at the Armor rating of your chest piece (I do not know Warrior armor but I will just guess and say 80...feel free to correct). When you use Healing Signet, the armor rating gets reduced by 40, so your 80 armor would become 40. More significant is that the damage done by creatures is based upon a Armor of 60. So if Aftershock says it should do 100 points of damage, then if it hits something with 60-armor, that something will take 100 damage. Also, the damage formula is structured so that for every 40-armor difference from 60, the dmg will be doubled/halved. So if you have 20 armor, the Aftershock will do 200 dmg and if you had 100 armor, the dmg would only be 50. Again bear in mind I am making these dmg numbers up. So the fact that your dmg doubled makes perfect sense. Your armor decreased by 40, causing 2x the dmg according to the equations. What I don't know is why your friend's dmg did not double too. Does he perhaps have something that increases his resistance to elemental damage?

Jul 14, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51	#22
GWGamer Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jun 2005	Thank you Dazzler. It makes sense now, I think. I didn't think my friend had any kind of additional defense or extra protection against Earth Dmg, or if there was such a thing for Warriors, but I'll have to check with them again when they log on. I'll post again when I find out. Thanks again everyone. A link for those who are interested in Healing Signets: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20977